Divorced Dadvocate; Create a Healthier & Less Traumatic Divorce with Special Guest Jude Sandvall

Hey, welcome back, No Problem Parents. We're going to keep with the theme this week on the topic of divorce. Our last episode, we had Rosalind Sadaka on, and she was teaching us some ways that we can protect our children through divorce, mistakes to avoid, and some co-parenting success strategies that are going to really help us as we navigate all things divorce with our kiddos, often placed in the middle. And today, my special guest is Jude Sandball. Jude is the founder and owner of TheDivorcedDadvocate.com.

He is a divorced dad that has faced many challenges raising three kiddos as he's gone through divorce. And he's an integrative wellness and life transformation coach and integrative NLP, Neuro Linguistic Programming Practitioner. He uses cutting-edge approaches to coach dads and he's going to assist you in creating a crystal-clear vision for your life after divorce Uncovering any hidden challenges that may be sabotaging you and he's going to help leave you feeling renewed reenergized and inspired So if you're a dad that's currently divorcing you're newly divorced. You've been divorced for years You're co-parenting you're just trying to navigate all the things of co-parenting with your ex today Jude's going to tell us his story and how he's really been able to deal with and overcome the challenges that came along with his very tumultuous divorce. Want to create a healthier and less traumatic divorce? Do you want to use your divorce as a doorway to a wonderful future and disentangle from your ex-spouse, gain emotional strength, stability, and resilience, and have a clear vision for your divorce and your life after divorce? Then take a listen, dads. Jude is here to support you. Welcome to the No Problem Parenting Podcast. Turn behavior problems into no problem with Jackie Fineman. Are you ready to become the confident leader your kids crave you to be? Do you want to learn how to make parenting easier and more fulfilling? Whether you

are at your wits end or you want to have more fun as a parent, you're definitely in the right place. Now here's your host, Jackie Finneman. Jude, I'm just so happy to have you on the show today. I have several families that I've worked with over the last year, actually two years.

I was mentioning this to you before we started recording since COVID. Why don't we begin with you just letting us know a little bit about what inspired you to become the Divorced Advocate? Sure. Well, the genesis was my own very high conflict divorce nine years ago, a little over nine years ago.

So I have three daughters. They were six, four and two at the time. And the divorce was very contentious and difficult and challenging. And then for the subsequent years, I muddled through trying to figure out how to get through all of what comes with being a single father after you get divorced. I had the whole fairy tale set up, everything that I had always desired and dreamed of and created in the house and the three kids and the business and everything that seems awesome and fairy tale-ish, etc.

And then it just came crumbling down, which was unbelievably difficult and challenging. It is for anybody on both sides. And for men, there's just different and unique challenges that come with being a divorced or divorced dad. And the way that we handle it is different than how women necessarily handle and go through the process.

And we talked a little bit before the show about modern therapy and the benefits and the, uh, and the detriments to, to, to therapeutic process. And some of that is not really geared towards, uh, towards men and masculinity. And so in thinking about what I wanted to do with my life, cause I'm still doing that. I decided to start doing work with men and that niche down into divorce or divorce dads because of my ongoing experience.

And I'm still in court with my ex and it's still in a high conflict. And we more parallel parent than we co-parent, although things are improving. It's it's just an ongoing, ongoing challenge. So that for me then became an opportunity to utilize that for something good that I can share with other men that are that are going through it.

So that was why I decided to to then jump full scale into this and start the podcast and create the community. And now we have an app and we have group meetings with individual coaching. We just have a whole network and community of divorce or divorce dads and resources for them, whether that's legal or therapeutic or coaching or financial community of people that are there to support them through the process and after divorce.

Not all divorces are contentious. Actually, the majority of divorces, like 90%, 95% get settled outside of court. But those few high conflict divorces, not few, but the smaller percentage of high conflict divorces, really, they're taxing, but it goes on for a very long time because there's usually some sort of dynamic that's created. And sometimes is often the case, one or both of the parties has some sort of challenge, some maybe disorder that is lending itself to the dynamic that creates that conflict that's ongoing.

And so you have a little bit of that going on as well. So what is in your experience, and I'm not just talking about your personal experience, but in your experience working with dads, what kind of ideas or tips or suggestions do you have for dads about why it's important for them to create a healthier and less traumatic divorce? What do you mean by that? What kinds of things are dads doing maybe initially that are maybe sabotaging their relationship with their kids?

Or how do they even get to the point where they can co-parent, especially initially, without losing their cool and engaging in maybe the, you know, the problems that caused the divorce in the first place or contributed to the divorce in the first place? Sure. I think it's important to say that it's in everybody's best interest to create a healthy and less traumatic divorce. So whatever the circumstances and trying to create that for the children, because you have children.

And if you're obviously if you're a dad, you have children in doing that, that's because the children are going to do something also that that that creates an opportunity for you to model something that you could otherwise never model in any other circumstance that you could create in the family environment. So I talk about it being an opportunity, and that was really, really hard to hear when you're going through all this crap during a divorce.

It's so chaotic and challenging and uncertain and everything, which is part of what makes it unbelievably difficult for men, because we like to have order and are linear and have a goal and want to work towards it. And this time of chaos has uncertainty, and we're not real comfortable with uncertainty. But if you can try to put together a vision, and that's the first step that I work with men is creating a vision for what you want to do through the divorce and then post divorce.

It can be an opportunity to model getting through an incredibly difficult and challenging situation and then being able to structure a life for yourself and your children afterwards that's positive and beneficial. And that there's there are a few other circumstances that I can think of that you can create that for your children and model that for your children. So it can really be an opportunity to to set yourself up.

And and the second part of that is, is you have a new opportunity for yourself to build a different kind of life. If you weren't happy with and not everybody gets a divorce because they're not happy, but you're going to get a divorce. so and things are going to change and so you're going to be forced to do something new and different so you have the opportunity to then take control of that and do something specifically what you want and how you want to do it and again that's another opportunity to model for your children the opportunity because life is full of changes you can have changes all the time to do something and make a change and get through that in the most healthy way how do you start how does a person, how does a dad start to even develop a vision and see outside of what is actually happening to them in the moment? I'm guessing that's really hard to do.

Yeah. Well, that's hard for all of us to do, whether we're in divorce or not in divorce, manage our emotions and recognize what's coming up and deal with that and make relatively positive choices and not be driven by our emotions. And so during divorce, that's probably the first thing for anybody, men or women, and it might be a little more challenging for men who have not been exposed to that or not been taught the skills to do that, to be aware of their emotions.

That's one of the things that women are more naturally inclined to be able to emote their feelings, to get their feelings out, not necessarily handle them better or communicate them better, but they are better at emoting and talking with girlfriends and creating that community. And men, not so much. Men kind of keep things close to themselves, may not talk about it definitely like that with guys. We're not going to get into that oftentimes. And or we isolate, which during divorce is the worst possible thing that we can do because we need people to help support us through that process. And that's one of the biggest things. And that's why I've attempted to make this community as inclusive as possible for for any any man to get involved with it whether it's group meetings free meetings workshops individual coaches if there's somewhere that any divorce or divorcing dad can get involved at some level to to get the support and not just be self-isolating and I think if there's the first thing you can do is make sure that you're finding some support, whether that's family, friends, therapists, coach, anybody, 12-step, church,

get involved where you can get some support. And that's going to help start that process. And then from there, if you can, you have the means working with a coach or a therapist is going to help you to start creating that vision. And maybe that's you're taking a step first to learn how to deal with your emotions. A lot of it just depends upon the circumstances, is the level of self-awareness of the dad and where they're at and be able to understand their emotions and creating goals and working towards goals. So it's a process. It's a process. But the first part of that process is get the support that you need while you're going through this, because we're not supposed to do this by ourselves. And there are millions of other men that are going through this also. And you'll be just absolutely amazed the men that show up in our group meetings that go, oh my God, I just feel so, so much better because somebody said,

I cried in bed, like cried myself to sleep last night. And you just hear a sigh of collective relief from, from many of the men going in their thoughts. Oh my God, him too. Okay, great.

I feel so much better. That's just not me because when we self-isolate, we think that's just us. We're the only one going through this and this is not right because this is uncomfortable. And I don't usually have these feelings like this and all kinds of stuff goes on so it's it's uh it's really good to get involved get uh people surrounding you to help you even if it's just one like i had one friend and it was good to just have somebody to talk to now the thing with family and friends is their advice is not always the best so just temper that support with the fact that they have a vested interest in something about what's going on because they're close to your life. Whereas a coach or a therapist can do things differently and work from a different perspective and perhaps help you in a more constructive manner, let's say.

Well, and I love that you say that. It is good to have one friend, somebody close that knows you, that, you know, you feel comfortable talking to. And more than that, yes, you need sort of you need a person that doesn't know your whole situation hasn't grown up with you hasn't, you know, doesn't have all these, you know, unintentional, unintended, unintended, you know, opinion, or, you know, just kind of like tries to imagine or tries to understand what you're going through and why, and then is maybe siding with you because they care about you and, you know, all of those dynamics.

You don't have that when you hire a coach or you join, uh, you know, another, a group of people going through the same thing that you are. And so I, I do think it's really important for, uh, and, and just supportive in a different way. Um, that pulls it's, it's interesting. Cause you're talking about wanting dads to be able to share their emotions or be emotional about it.

at the same time, hiring a coach or someone else helps you almost be less emotional about it in some ways, less reactionary maybe, and just more well thought out, I guess is how I'm trying to say it. Sure. Well, part of, part of understanding your emotions is what to do with them. So we all, and we all have emotions, men and women have emotions. That's just, that's just a natural state of being a human being. So what we do with and how we, how we process those emotions and what we do with those emotions then determines like what you said whether that's reactive and it's detrimental or it's non-reactive and it's a thought through process and then it's beneficial so teaching people people in general and i do it specifically with with with dads and because there's i just feel that it comes up in a different way for dads and we process it and men in general in our masculine natures process it a different way and so working with them and learning to understand that and that it's okay to do it a different way and it's okay to be angry or break down some of these stigmas etc that these are all okay because emotions are there's no there is no label to emotions they're not positive or negative the raw emotions that we have is just an emotion. And so when, when you start stripping away all the stuff away from that, and you just say, okay, then, then what do we do with it? It's just, it becomes empowering. It becomes empowering

because even the, even the, even the emotion of anger can be transformative in many different manners or in, in particularly in a, in a relationship. If, if you can understand the anger and why it's coming up and then utilize that for for a positive that let's say to have a positive conversation that leads to leads to some positive change whether that's in yourself or in your relationship that can be transformative so anger equally as much as sadness or heartbreak or whatever other emotion that you're having can be it can be a it can it can be used for a for a positive or to move in a positive direction. Yeah, that's absolutely right. I agree. And so what are let's, let's maybe start out too, with some of the challenges that divorced dads are facing. Let's just, can you name a few of those and maybe some first steps on how to over dealing with and overcoming those challenges? We're all about that here at No Problem Parenting. We say, you know,

problems are meant to be dealt with and overcome. Yes. Doesn't mean you're not going to have problems in your life. But when you do, oftentimes the problem may not, the behavior, the thing you think is the problem may not actually be the problem. There's something else that was going on underneath. Yeah. So depending on the situation, some, some of that, some of the biggest challenges are that you haven't parented by yourself ever, and don't know how to go through that process and, and, and handle the kids and handle everything that's, that's going on and work and getting kids ready and cooking and laundry and housekeeping and all that. And then, and I'd say that that's, that's kind of the stereotype out there with, with, with dads.

But I find probably the bigger challenge that I find it particularly with the men that come to me that, that I do work with is the opposite, which was my case also is that how do you deal with the fact that you don't have your kids 50% of the time anymore. And that is really, really hard things, especially mentally and emotionally for, for dads who like me, I never, I never fathomed that I was going to be parenting, actively parenting, because I'm never not a parent, but actively involved in parenting my kids 50% of the time. And so that was an incredibly difficult adjustment for for me to make and going from being with my daughters all the time to then it was not it wasn't 50 50 but let's just say less time or 50 50 and then having that that other time where you know I built my life around my family and and so adjusting to that and figuring all that out and what do I do and that's where potentially your opportunity arises and how do you change that? How do you have your life 2.0, you could call it. So those are two kind of kind of diametrical ones, but really the big ones in the start of, oh, what's going on? How's this going to happen now? And this, my life is completely different than what it has been.

What about conversing with your kids? What are some pointers or what are some things that you recommend to dads who are struggling with talking to their kids about the divorce? one of the things that I ask parents when they come to me and they're co-parenting their divorce they're meeting with me from separate you know uh homes or at work and logging into a zoom session together so that they you know they might be struggling with the behavior with their kid and they want to both get some uh ideas about how to how to parent through that um if the child is struggling with a divorce, and this could be any age really, but I guess I'm thinking more like the five and ups. Sometimes I think parents don't really know how to have that conversation without putting the other parent down, blaming the other parent, you know. And so one of the first things I ask parents is have they apologized to the child for the divorce? And nine times out of 10 parents kind of give that deer in the headlights look like, no, they've often been really caught up in the, you're going to be okay. Dad and I, you know, aren't going to be together.

Mom and I still love each other. Sometimes they say, you know, we just can't, can't live together. And so they're wanting to make things better for the kids, but they're not actually, you know, I've had kids I've shared this on other episodes. I've had kids that have said, you know, mom and dad, you say the divorce isn't my fault. Why am I the one in therapy?

Yeah, great. That's funny. Well, so I can definitely appreciate that. But I would also say have some grace and compassion with yourself too. And it's oftentimes difficult for people in general to apologize for anything, right? And you know this in coaching and therapy and and counseling that's unless you've gotten to the point in your maturity and self-awareness and self-development apologizing is a skill and it's a skill that not not a lot of people are really good at I mean I'm not really good at it I'm good at trying to do it now but but I wasn't even good at that at one point either until I learned how to do that so again that's potentially where there's an opportunity to learn a skill that you didn't have. And having that conversation with your kids, like we did in the beginning say the same thing, it's not your fault.

We correlated to, you know, how you have friends that sometimes after a while, you just don't get along and you stop being friends. That's kind of, and my daughters were six-form too. So this conversation may be applied to a six-year-old to really may have taken it to heart uh and tried to to understand and process it consciously the four and the two-year-old really didn't quite get it or understand but um and so maybe five plus but you're putting in a terms that that they can't understand but also being open with them that you really this is not something that you've gone through and you don't really know what you're doing either and that's okay to to tell them that I don't know. And I'm, and I'm, and I'm, I'm sorry that this is going to be, this is going to impact you and it's impacting all of us. And, um, we're going to get through it and I'm keeping those lines of communication, but you can be perfectly honest with your kids about how you're feeling. And if that's that you're unsure of what's going to happen or that, um, things might be challenging or money might be challenging. That's okay to tell them that too. Um, but I had a lot of guilt around it. So for me to be able to do those things, it was a long time in coming.

It didn't, I didn't like pop into this. And that's why I do what I do now. I didn't pop in this knowing that, hey, it would have been much better for me to just be open about all of those things instead of feeling guilty and then trying to be super dad and having to have everything perfect and their lunch is done and their uniforms pressed and literally killing myself for the first years to try to replicate what I believe I could do as a single dad that we had in the family, which is impossible to do because you're a one person and one person cannot do the work of two people in a family unit that works cohesively together.

So there's things that fall by the wayside. There's things that you have to sacrifice. There's just different, it's just gonna be a different way of living. And it's okay to let them know that.

And you can also let them know that that might be different at your mom's house. And that's okay also, because that's your mom and that's her house and it's your house. And it's okay to remind them when to come back from mom's house that you're at dad's house. And this is how we work at dad's house. And you might think, oh, that's difficult and that's confusing and that's awful for the kids. And it's like, they can't figure this out. It's that's totally not true. They are there. It's okay then to have your way that you handle things at dad's house because that's dad's house because they'll figure out and it's like so it's a great lesson though also because there's going to be changes in their lives and there's going to be changes in their environments all through their lives so they're going to go from work or they're going to change one job to another job the environment's going to be different or they're going to have um they're going to have a relationship or a friendship that's different and so and it's always evolving so learning that you think oh this is awful but it's actually not and that's the kind of insight that is really helpful that I wish I would have had as I was just laying in bed feeling guilty and all the shame around not giving my children the life that that I believe that they should have and that I had built and that I envisioned and worked so hard for and now it wasn't happening.

And they're going to be just awful. And they're going to be in therapy for the rest of their lives. And they're going to blame me and their mom. And it's not happened like that at all.

Actually, I was just having this conversation. And I was just feeling blessed about how well my daughters are doing and thinking they're even doing better than some of the kids that I know that have all these luxuries and all these opportunities that are seemingly unlimited to them. And my daughters are just doing incredibly, incredibly well. We have our challenges, yes, but I can definitely say that they're thriving. And so looking at that nine years later and comparing it to how I felt in the moment of divorce is like worlds, worlds apart. Just being honest with our kids and instead of trying to make things better, convince them that things are going to be okay, or that you know what you're doing,

or try to pretend you know what you're doing. Just, I love that you say, admitting that you don't know what you're doing. This is new to you. That is so much more refreshing and relaxing for kids than trying because they're sponges. They know, they sense, they sense when we're struggling, they sense when we're uncomfortable, when we're irritated, they, they know. So being able to just have a conversation with them, say, this is new to me too. This isn't what I wanted. This isn't what I was expecting or what I was hoping for, for you guys. And we're going to be okay. Cause we're going to figure it out together. Now, of course you can't have that conversation with a two-year-old, right? But it is in your actions that they're going to pick up on that. You're either okay or you're not okay. And you're having a really bad day and it's all right to let them see that as well. We, we try so hard to protect our kids from reality that we're really doing them a disservice when we do that. Yeah, absolutely. And I got to be clear, I didn't do this in the beginning. I, it was all, all super dad facade and it's all going to be okay. And putting on the brave face and, but, but you can't hide, you cannot hide that energetic feeling behind it because they will pick up on, on the, it really comes down to stress and sadness and all that. And that's going to, that's going to come through. And so getting to the point where you're taking care of yourself

and part of, part of this is self-care. So being open about that, knowing about your feelings and then being able to communicate it, that is self-care, learning to do that. So hopefully you're working some way, whether that's like we said, a coach or a therapist to work through that or 12 steps or whatever it is that you're doing it, but this is self-care so that you can say to them, I don't know. I just, I don't know.

And I'm uncertain or I'm sad. You might be sad about the situation and let them see you or have those feelings because if you don't do that, Jackie, then what you're teaching them that it's not okay to express their feelings because they're going to know that you're not, they're going to feel that. We disempower them by not giving them the opportunity to figure this stuff out themselves, because they're going to see it and they're going to figure it out. Kids will know you cannot hide. And that's the other thing with whatever your actions are, and whatever you're doing, you can't hide it from them. You will not, you might think that you are. And so this just goes to being authentic and living a life of integrity with your children.

it can't be do as I say and not as I do, even if you don't think that they know what you're doing, because they will know they know what's going on. And if they don't know it consciously, they know it's energetically and they know it subconsciously. And it doesn't mean that we're having our deep, dark conversations and processing all this stuff with our kids. But I love the idea of kids coming to us with a question and just being being real with them and saying things like, tell me more, you know, well, what do you mean? Or tell me more about that? Or what are you thinking? And then when they do not trying to protect the other person, let them notice they have observations, they have feelings about this stuff, or they have questions about this and just letting them have those and then being able to, to just validate what they're saying. Yes. Creating that, that container for them to feel safe in communicating is really critical. And dads, I feel, can do a really good job of that and creating that structure because that is part of what dads do in a family dynamic is create a container,

create a structure for family. And so doing that, that's just a very positive natural tendency. And one of the ways you can do that is regular dinners and having regular time, let's say. It was for us was dinner, just sitting down. And then we played a game called Rose Thorn Bud, which is tell me about your great experience from the day. Tell me about an act of kindness that you witnessed or that you performed. And then something that was a mistake that you made, which is a huge thing to tell your kids, well, I made this mistake today.

so that they know that making mistakes is an okay thing too, because we're going to, we're going to, we're going to all make mistakes all the time and they don't have to. And that's really important during the divorce too, because oftentimes, as you know, kids will start having to feel like they have to be perfect because they have some guilt around it. Like you mentioned earlier, it's not, they think it's their fault, et cetera. And if you're talking about the mistakes you're making, and then they feel comfortable with talking to you about their mistakes, then they're not getting into that, that cycle of perfectionism, which then can lead to all kinds of other health issues and bulimia, eating disorders, or, or perfectionism, or high achieving or whatever it might be. Yeah, I love that. And I think it's really good that for parents to say what to their kids, what they're thinking or what they're wondering, I in change the converse step three, no problem parenting change the conversation, we use a lot of wonder and a lot of notice. So I noticed that when your sister started talking about mom and the fun time that you had when you were at mom's house, I noticed that you kind of got quiet. And I wonder if you felt bad that sister was telling us about the fun time you had with mom. And if that you were worried about me feeling bad about that or jealous of that, saying things like that opens the door for

your child to know that you're comfortable talking about it and it's okay. Yes, absolutely. It's totally okay. And to say things like, sometimes I do, you know, wish I could be with you having the same fun time. And this is the way things are now. And it's okay for me to sometimes wish I could be with you when I'm not. Allowing your kiddos to see that you're okay. And sometimes you do miss miss out and that's okay too and sometimes you have really fun times at your house and they're gonna feel maybe the same way about mom that just naming those problems or those feelings or those emotions without going into a big therapy session about it just makes it more comfortable for the kids I think to to know that this is okay and you're okay yeah and it's okay to let them know you're not okay right right I'm sad yeah that is just feeling sad or mine is just feeling sad and it's okay to feel sad because then that, that also like minimizes some of this stigma around depression. Now that everybody's depressed, et cetera, we all get sad. We all,

and we all have extended times of sadness too. Sadness is not just fleeting. Sometimes there's, there's periods of sadness in our life and we all want to get worked up about it being depression, et cetera. And that's a catch word these days, like narcissism is a catch word.

Letting them know it's okay to be sad and that there's nothing wrong with them. If they're sad, it's again, an emotion and it's not good or bad. It's okay. And because even when we're sad, we're okay because there's a reason why we're sad. And that's a process that we're needing to go through to learn something. So if you look at it from that reframe, then, wow, that's good. I'm, I should be happy about being sad for some periods of time, or at least, uh, okay. And comfortable with the discomfort, because I know that the discomfort is leading to something that's positive on the backend. Like when you go to the gym, maybe for the first time to either start working out or get back to working out, it's going to be uncomfortable because you're going to be damn sore, but you know, on the backend of that, after the first week or couple of weeks, that's going to be, that's going to be positive. So if you can reframe that when you get sad or when you get upset or any one of these quote unquote negative emotions that if you can get comfortable with the discomfort around that,

know that on the backside of it, there's gonna be some real and maybe even really better growth than when you're really happy and enjoying something that you've achieved and worked towards because that's good too. But it seems like for whatever reason, us humans are inclined to really grow through those more difficult ones and become more memorable. So if you can, if you can remember and think back in your life, all of the, the, the learning that you've had in it, I don't know about you, but for me, some of the most informative ones were through the most difficult times.

Yeah, unfortunately, that's the way it goes. And that's why I say to parents a lot, why would you sabotage your child's tough times? Like let them go through it so that you can see, they can see, they can make it through. And they can endure that and be resilient. They gain so many skills when they go through tough times or tough feelings.

So I agree with you about it's, it's not always saying I'm going to be okay, or it's okay. I'm okay right now. But I do think that oftentimes with kids, it's, it's good to let them know that the sad is normal. Yeah.

That is okay. Right. Of course I'm sad right now. Or yeah, I am a little sad when that happens and you don't have to protect me from that.

It's going to be okay. But it's also okay that I'm sad about it for a while. Yep. letting your kids know they don't need to take care of you and that you appreciate that they care about you. Yeah, absolutely. And that, that whole philosophy of letting your kids make mistakes and go through tough times, the mistakes that they're going to make at two, four, 10, 12, even 15, 16 are going to be a lot less expensive, if you will, than the ones we make at 25, 35, 45 in divorces and bankruptcies. And then let's talk really quick before we wrap up about the NLP.

So tell us a little bit more about how you introduce the NLP into your coaching. Sure. Well, NLP is neuro-linguistic programming. And basically what that is, it's a user manual for your brain. And what it is, it's skills and techniques around helping you to create better outcomes in your life. And so I integrate that into my individual practice and working with clients and helping them to create better outcomes that they want in their life.

And so maybe different ways of thinking about things instead of having knee-jerk reactions or reacting or responding from that fight or flight part of your brain, the NLP really helps you kind of do some reprogramming of your brain so that some statements or things that happen when things happen to you, you don't, you aren't like triggered, right? That's another buzzword, reactionary to the statement or to the behavior. Exactly. So it can be managing your emotions, it can be managing your goals, your outcomes, it can be, it depends on the client, it depends on where you're at and what it is that you're wanting to achieve. It can be as simple as wanting to quit smoking, or it can be much deeper in trying to have a transformative experience in your life.

Very cool. Well, your clients learn all the things about how to have a healthier and less traumatic divorce. So if you're just new to divorce or you're separated and you're like, I don't even know where to begin or what to do, you're going to help them disentangle from their ex-spouse. you're going to help them gain some emotional strength stability and resiliency and really figure out a vision a new vision for their future as a dad and as as a person as a man so um i highly encourage folks to go uh check out your website what is the best way for people to reach out and get in touch with you june so the best way would be going to the website which is the divorce divorceadvocate.com. But we also have a podcast that's got 100 plus episodes, it's got all kinds of phenomenal information, just like your podcast, but it's all geared towards dads and going through the divorce and everything about divorce or divorcing as a dad. And then there's also one more thing, which is a really phenomenal tool, which is called a divorce quiz. And it does it gives them an opportunity to assess where they're at in their divorce compared to others who have gone through a divorce takes about 10 minutes is a hundred questions, and it's going to give them immediate results and five different categories to show them where they're doing well or where they might struggle. And if you take that, if you take that quiz, there's an opportunity to,

to spend some free time with me going through those results and talking about, uh, where we can help you to, uh, get the support you need, where you might be struggling. And you can find that on the website under the divorce quiz tab or at the divorce quiz.com. The divorce quiz.com.

Awesome. Well, we're going to put the links for all of those resources in the show notes. Thanks so much for meeting with me today. I'm, uh, you know, we learned something new. I'm just always happy to have happy to offer resources or connect people with other resources for things that I don't specialize in, right. Which clearly I'm not a divorced dad. And so, uh, but I would, And I'll be happy to refer on and send any divorced dads that I work with your way.

Thanks again so much for being here today, Jude. Yeah, thanks for the opportunity, Jackie. I love the conversation. I appreciate what you're doing.

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