Be Better not Bitter at home and at work with Special Guest Mark Aylward of the Imperfect Mens Club

Welcome back to the No Problem Parenting Podcast, where we choose to deal with and overcome the challenges in our home with our kids and become the confident leaders that our kids crave us to be. Hey parents, if you have a teen or young adult that is suffering, they're just truly struggling and nothing has seemed to help, head over to drjjkelly.com and sign your kiddo up for the Get Real program. In this program, Dr. JJ is going to help your teen or young adult build awareness of their emotional experiences, build a vocabulary of emotion words to enhance awareness and competency so that they can communicate their emotions. They're going to build a framework for increasing their chances of getting what they want when they ask for something and learn how to say no. They'll build a life worth living and increase their capacity to experience joy and calm. Go to drjjkelly.com or click the link in the show notes and help your kiddo get back on track.

hey parents i'm jackie finnaman host of the no problem parenting podcast and founder of hello world and no problem parenting i've made it my mission to help you become the confident leader your kids crave you to be and you know sometimes we just don't know where to turn we don't know about the resources or the things that are available to us that are going to help us help our children and or help ourselves become that confident leader so i created this podcast to share resources with you that you've maybe never heard of that are going to help you and your family feel better and get back on track. In today's episode, my guest is a single parent and an accomplished businessman. Our conversation today focuses on how this single dad made a decision early on in his failing marriage to be better for his children and not bitter.

Among his many accomplishments, Mark and his colleague Jim founded the Imperfect Men's Club. They're middle-aged men looking to serve other middle-aged men with guidance and advice, born of experience and a lifetime of taking risks, failing aggressively, getting back up, and moving forward. There's a link in the show notes for the Imperfect Men's Club podcast. And for more resources, go to NoProblemParents.com, click on the resource page, or click on the contact button and schedule a call with me, and I'm going to help you find the best resource for you and your family. All right, let's get into today's episode. My special guest today is Mark Aylward. He has 35 years experience in the technical staffing space as an owner and operator.

He's generated over $75 million in revenue and he built and sold two multimillion dollar companies, has hired and trained hundreds of salespeople and recruiters. And he found work for all three of his young adult children right out of high school and then helped them all start their own companies online. Mark got sole custody of his three kids representing himself in his divorce. He is not an attorney, and most recently he's transitioned into coaching, helping people in career transition make big decisions and help aspiring leaders become great leaders.

I love all of this, Mark. We could talk about 15 different subjects today. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Jackie. Thank you so much for having me. This is going to be fun.

It is going to be fun, first and foremost, as it is a parenting show. I really want to start with the single parent. It is not as common for dads to get custody, or it can be a pretty lengthy process for dads to get custody. And I'd love to hear your story about that.

Yeah, it's a long story. Let me see if I can condense it. Cliff Notes version, right? How do we do that?

Yeah, it was probably one of the most contentious divorces. At least that's what my attorney kept telling me before I fired him. You married her, and I said, stop saying that, dude, or you're going to be no longer. she went through seven attorneys over the span of about seven years. And the purpose that was obvious to everyone else was she only wanted to hurt me. Did I do anything to warrant that? I'm sure I could have done some things differently, but no, I don't think I did. And I think the fact that I got custody of my three kids and they don't speak with their mother anymore, having been abandoned a second time, speaks to the craziness of what that was all about. And I don't besmirch her. I don't resent her. She gave me three beautiful children. She took all my money,

but that's just stuff. And at the end, I found myself in the courtroom not getting what I wanted because of the apathy of the judges. It was almost as if they said, we've seen so much of this. This is just another one of these deals. And it clicked a number of years in. And I thought, I'm going to do this myself. And I called up a friend of mine who is an attorney, but not a divorce lawyer and not in the state of Florida, but a really good attorney.

And he helped me. He helped me. But I went in there on my own. And I looked at the judge when I walked in.

This judge was the eighth judge that we'd been in front of. But she was a relatively young woman. And she still cared. You could see it in her eyes.

She was the only judge that actually started proceeding by thinking or saying, this is only about one thing. What's in the best interest of the children? That's it. And my kids at that point were old enough that they had come to me.

My daughters in particular said, dad, we're coming in to testify. And I said, I don't want that. I don't want that. And they said, I don't care.

This has to stop. And this is a good story, but I might start crying. I was just going to say, this is powerful. I'm already getting goosebumps.

So my eldest, long story short, my eldest, it's time. They're sitting outside the courtroom and it's time for her to come in. And she comes in and a couple of things happen that were kind of magical and sad. She put her hand on the Bible and started to say, you know, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

And she just burst out crying. But the whole time her mother's on the other side of the courtroom, didn't once even look at her daughter, didn't get up to come hug her, didn't even acknowledge that she was in the room. And I was watching the judge. And I looked at the judge and the judge was looking at her.

And I thought to myself, I just won. I just won, you know, and that's what happened. And I walked out of there, closed the door behind me, my knees buckled, I almost fell down. But that was seven years and millions of dollars spent on complete bullshit, you know, complete nonsense.

And how old were the kiddos? At that particular time, I think my middle daughter was 16 and my eldest had just turned 18. So it started when they were 10, 11, 12, kind of, and my son was like eight. That's when it all began. I filed. She filed that. In response, she filed a domestic violence injunction with all five pages of made up stuff. So I couldn't see my kids for six weeks. She did that three times in the course of seven years.

and it was um i understand you know i understand why the system is set up to protect women because i think there's too many situations where the women need to be protected right but the system doesn't acknowledge the fact that that's not always the case and what if it what if it's not you know so you can poke away at any of those areas you want jackie but it's it's there's so many stories there there's so many things that you wouldn't even believe were done um that i can now mostly laugh at, you know, and the kids, the kids and I are just extremely close.

So I have no regrets about that. So how did that, how did that work for you then moving into single parenting and being a dad and doing all the things like what was maybe the toughest thing? Everybody understands that a man and a woman can fall out of love. Everybody understands that a man can start to really hate a woman or a woman can start to hate a man. Nobody understands why the parent would also deploy tactics that traumatize the children to hurt the guy.

And so I don't know that they're, the only understanding of that is that she, she grew up in a very different, my ex grew up in a very different family environment that I did. Her family was broken and mine was not. We weren't perfect, but we weren't broken. You know, there was a lot of love.

I was loved. She was not. And I thought, you know, back, I, you know, I can change this. I can, my goodness, my kindness can impact this because she was beautiful, intelligent, worldly, interesting, funny.

But inside that midlife crisis came, you know, the aging, the difficult pregnancy with my son and menopause, which she didn't even want to acknowledge was going on. Those brought up all that brokenness from her childhood. And when that happens, and we all have hardship, right? But when that happens in midlife at some point, and it could be a health thing, it could be emptiness thing, it could be somebody died.

you know, financial hardship, you have two choices. One is, and this is a phrase I've stolen, but you can be bitter or you can get better. And she didn't know how to get better. So she chose bitter. And again, there's a lot of information behind that, but I, I was tasked with things like, Hey dad, mom's crazy. And I'd like, well, what do you say to that? You don't pile on it. Even though I had every right to pile on, I did a pretty good job of resisting that. So they always had a landing space that was soft. They weren't going to come to dad's house and he was just going to spend the whole time bashing mom. That was never going to happen. I didn't know. I just avoided the topic to that crazy comment. I would just say, I'm sorry that you feel that way. And then the bubble over my head and the comic strip is like, yeah, no shit. She's out of her mind,

you know? You know, and just feeling torn too, because you know that and, and you know, everybody has a story, right? Everybody has a story. And I can appreciate that, you know, despite the hardship of your divorce and your situation that you can still say, you understand she has a story. And you're also making me think of Rosalind Sadaka. She is the reason that International Child Center Divorce Month exists, which is in January of every year.

But really it comes down to the child should be at the center of the divorce. Everything should be about the child. And when it's not that, if you're the parent that understands that and knows that, and it's the other parent is not, it is, it's excruciating. Yeah, I certainly can't say it wasn't painful. But I think like we all like most of us do. Mark, how did you handle all of that? The distraction? What about work? What about your own health? What about your own well being?

Just like, you know, God gives you what he gives you. And you deal with it, or you don't. And it It just never occurred to me that the don't or can't was a good option. I didn't like that option.

So I chose to do. And then you just get done what needs to be done because, you know, we can all do whatever we are capable of doing or whatever we're handed. Not all of us choose to, but you just reach down and pull up from wherever that emotion is or wherever that strength is or wherever that I haven't slept in days is or I drank too much last night because I just wanted to numb myself. You know, you have these little blips, but just not with the kids around, you know?

So anyway. Yeah, I know. Like I said, we could go on all kinds of different topics. That's a big one.

It is a big one. So what kinds of supports did you rely on? Did you have as you navigated single parenthood? My mom moved in when I got sole custody and she was becoming a little bit infirm anyway.

So it was, it really worked out well. we lived with her for the last seven years i think of her life um she passed a number of years back she wasn't physically capable of doing everything that i could do but she was certainly emotionally capable and she was a good grandma we had a dog that everybody picked out together farley who passed a couple years ago um my family's great and my friends are great you know and uh i don't live in an area where my family lives. I moved from the Boston area, so I didn't have, my mom was kind of nomadic after my parents got divorced in my thirties. Um, so she ended up coming down to stay with us. That was really helpful. But, um, yeah, I had a lot of people that I could lean on, you know, and, uh, talk to, um, and I was always, um, nutrition conscious and exercise conscious. And I leaned on good food and lots of exercise, started going back to church.

That was helpful. Started praying a lot, learned how to meditate, picked up yoga. You know, there's a lot of free, easy things out there at our fingertips that we, some of us just don't, I guess we don't know about them or they don't appeal to us, even though we don't really know whether they would or not because we didn't try them. So I just kind of scurried around and figured stuff out as best as I could. During all of this, you were an accomplished businessman, you were thriving at work and all of that. And then you're struggling with this family life and all the emotion and all the stuff that comes with that. Was there ever a time where you were embarrassed to get help or you were trying to keep this kind of hidden, protect your kids from it and other people from knowing your situation? Well, you know, both of my girls and my son to a point, because my son,

before I got custody, he stayed with his mother and my girls came to live with me way before I got custody because they just said no more. And apparently my son told me at one point when he was about 13, I said, dude, come on over. I mean, there's nothing that can be done. Just come on over. And he said to me, literally, mommy says, if I leave, she'll kill herself. So, so he's, They all three have an abandonment thing going on that they're working through in different ways.

She showed up at a ball. She didn't go to any volleyball games, any practices. And then her brother came to town and she just showed up at a tournament. And every parent in there knew who she was. And they're all thinking to themselves, what the hell is she doing here?

She's never been here before in like five years. And she's what she's wagging her tail. what's she here for? And my daughter was crying. She was, it was, it was, that was embarrassing, but I was never, I never attached myself to the embarrassment. I was always like, I've got nothing to do with this. I was associated with this woman at one point in time, but I'm not anymore. She is my children's mom, but I'm not going to buy into the embarrassment of that because I know who I am. And I had a couple of people tell me, Mark, everyone knows who you are. You don't have to defend yourself about any of this stuff. And even the people that don't know you as well, once they get to know you, they're going to go, I see what this is,

right? I see what this is. So yeah, I guess I never was embarrassed about it. And I asking for help, even though I'm a man has never been very difficult for me. And I think it's probably because of what I've done for a living is, is basically introducing people to other people and negotiating on their behalf and asking for job openings and asking for permission to represent somebody. And so maybe that's part of it. And maybe it's partly because of my dad, just the way I was raised, you know? Absolutely, man. It does sound like you have an amazing family, a circle of support. Not everybody has that. And so when you don't have those kinds of people in your life, doesn't mean you have to go it alone. You just need to reach out and find those people. So tell me a little bit about, yeah, about your experience with that and how you do connect people with others. I find that parent coaching, a lot of people, what's parent coach. And,

and sometimes people take six to nine months to connect with me after they've heard of me, because there is sometimes that, I don't know if it's shame or embarrassment or guilt or whatever you think that I should, I'm so successful in my job. I should be able to do this. Parenting. Yeah, no, I run into that a lot. Cause there's a lot of shame and anxiety and embarrassment when you're in a professional situation that you don't want to be in, or you get let go, or you get demoted, or you don't get promoted. There's a lot of times during one's professional career and the transitions in that career where those emotions show up. And so I got most of the people that come to me have seen me for a while and don't come until they either if something happens to them that's transformative in their minds or something I say or have written hits a button that I hadn't hit yet, you know, because it's just like parenting. It's like recruiting and helping people find work. What are the most important decisions in our lives? I think if you're spiritual, then God is number one. You got family, you got house, you got job,

you know, so jobs like three or four for some people, it might be one or two, you know, So there's a lot of emotion in what I do. And it's requisite of me to kind of pull that emotion out, get to what it is, call it what it is, accept it for what it is, and then start to pivot and say, okay, now that we've acknowledged it and accepted it and clarified it, what do we do about it? You know, but I think I look at all the issues in my life like that.

I'm a big guy with this whole thing of what happens when something bad happens. Nothing. You don't, you don't do anything. You pause, right?

Don't react. And that's definitely from my father, who was an airline pilot and a fighter pilot. What happens, Mark, when an engine catches on fire? Nothing.

Nothing. You get back to the objectivity of your training and you pull the emotion out of the moment. What do I do now? Okay.

Now speak. Now act. You know, it's like the email that you create when you're mad at somebody and you sit on it for a day and the next day you delete it. Almost never send it, you know?

Yeah, yeah. Write it down. Wait 24 to 48 hours. And then think about it again and then respond.

Yeah, that's a life-changing skill for someone who doesn't have it yet. You got to give yourself time to think. You got to give yourself time to lower the volume on the emotion. But again, that's something I did that with all my kids.

And one of the things that was really magical about the circumstances was I became a father and mother to my girls. So we talked about things that I don't think most fathers would, which was initially a little bit kind of awkward. But I was right. I was I went right in.

You know, I brought them both to the to the Walgreens when they first started having their periods and stuff like that. And conversations about boyfriends and conversations about sex and conversations about alcohol and drugs. And not that I wouldn't have participated in those decisions, but I don't think they would have come to me about many of those things if they had a mother who was open to those discussions. So but I also learned from my daughters how to become a much better listener, because I can't say this is true of all women.

But in my experience, most of the time, whether it's a wife or a girlfriend or a mother or a sister or daughter, when they come to me with a complaint or an issue, they really don't want me to solve anything. They just want me to listen. And I think I knew that before, but I got really good at it when I needed to. So that was that was kind of cool.

I think that masculine energy is is just naturally to fix and to problem solve and to get a solution and, you know, keep going. And and so I appreciate that because it is a skill to be able to stop and listen. What do you need to hear? Yeah, that's a good one. Or, you know, you do you want a recommendation for me or you just want me to keep listening?

you know, cause I can go either way. I'm cool either way, you know? Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that you do in your work is to help people get clarity when they're feeling stuck or they're just kind of feeling like they're at a dead end.

You help them find clarity and confidence, which is another reason why I wanted to have you on the show because No Problem Parenting is all about becoming the confident leader. I say our kids crave us to be, and so many problems are easily turned into no problems handled, dealt with, overcome when we feel confident and when we feel like we know what we're doing. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Most of the time when someone engages me, my services, I've become pretty good at kind of insisting that we have a conversation for about 30 minutes on my dime. And I ask you, what's going on? Tell me what's going on. And I say, what does that mean a lot? You know, what do you do? I'm a programmer. What does that mean? You know, what language do you program in?

How senior are you? What solutions do you solve? What do you want to do? And I find myself, people just don't give themselves permission most of the time to say, what I know about what I can do next is only my view of what I can do next.

This guy's been doing this for 35 years in multiple different geographic locations at multiple different levels of seniority across gender lines, across racial lines, across all kinds of lines, cultural lines, religious lines. None of that stuff, all that stuff's irrelevant to me. You're a human being. Let's see what you can give yourself permission to do.

You're a project manager in the healthcare space. You don't have to just look for another job as a project manager in the healthcare space. What skills do you have? Write them down.

very, very specifically that could transfer to almost any other job, leadership job that was out there. And what you're going to find is if you do that diligently, 80 or 90 percent of those skills you could use at almost any other job that's out there. And people just go, boom, right? It's just an epiphany when they don't have that.

And then it's like, well, how do you find work? Well, you just send resumes to online job postings. No, that's not how you find work. OK, so let's read. It's like recalibrating how you look at life, how you look at work, how you look at working for looking for work and then all the other steps in that process.

Once we give permission and that's a process, you know, that's a that's a few hours of diligent work and a couple of weeks of them leaving me and thinking and doing some things that I give them exercises to do now. okay, what's your story? Who are you? Right? What do you do? And why should I spend any more time talking to you about coming to work for me? Oh, I can do I can I can talk about that. I know I got that. Like, no, I don't. Nothing is done without practice, right? And what what I find in that exercise is, they come out of that with a story that is compelling. It's concise. It's interesting.

the person that they're talking to knows exactly who they're talking to and what what I want to do what I love to do what my interests are what my passions are I used to ask people in interviews when I was hiring them to come to work for me what's the hardest thing that's ever happened to you in life and tell me how you came out the other side and then you just shut up and listen because now I know how creative you are I know how self-accountable you are I know how interesting you are. I know how articulate you are. I know so many, so many things about you if I just shut up and listen to that response. I think a lot of the things that you're doing to help people find either their ideal job, their ideal roles, helpful for, especially in those preteen and teen years with our kids. What kind of advice would you have for parents about how they can do sort of that same thing with their, with their kiddos? Yeah, there's a couple things. I mean, I think that modeling is with behavior is probably the most important part of being a parent because your children are going to do what you do a lot more than they're going to say what you say.

They'll do both, but I find they're listening in the backseat, you know, they're listening and they're watching you, you know. And I also think I tried to treat my children with respect from a very young age. I find I see a lot of parents, you know, goo goo ga ga. I was never a goo goo ga ga guy. I was like, you know, finish your plate, put your dishes in the sink. And you talk back to me, you know, where you're going to go, you'd be up in your bedroom, and there's no TV up there.

There's no computer up there. It was it was clear boundaries. It wasn't dictatorial, but it was clear boundaries. It was consistency. It was routine. It was love and laughter.

I remember my middle daughter coming to me when she was 15 years old. And she said, her friend just got grounded. What's grounded, dad? I'm thinking to myself, I guess I've done a pretty good job. She doesn't even know what that word means. Yeah, that's awesome. I like to say the structure and the consistency, all that stuff is so great. The delivery is really important with it too. And when kids just know that we mean what we say, not in a dictator drill sergeant kind of way. It's just very matter of fact, it doesn't have to be this tug of war, resistant, defensive, you know, who's going to win kind of conversation. It just is. And kids do so much better when they just know the expectations and they know you're not going to waver, whether that's giving in or, you know, telling them to jump and how high. Well, that's the consistency piece, right? Yeah.

I think it's all this stuff. It's so interesting listening to you talk about parenting because we have very similar parenting styles, I can tell. But it's also all of these principles apply when you're helping an adult to communicate through a process that's very important to him or her, you know, it's the same thing. But yeah, the consistency was the big part. I think the and the closeness, I mean, I showed up, every teacher knew who I was, all the coaches knew who I was, the principal knew who I was, the guidance, I engaged with all of them. And I'm like, when I do this, you're going to take care of my kid better than you're going to take care of the kid that who doesn't have parents showing up because that's human nature, whether you want to or not.

And you only have so much time and space either. I'm coming in, I'm getting that time because it's my kid. You know, I was, I was all man, the amount of driving I did for 10 years was insane because they were all aspiring athletes. They were all in extracurricular activities. They were all good students. And until they started driving, you know, I have a lot of kids in my expedition for a long time. I remember the year my son turned 15, our son turned 15. And I, you know, oh my gosh, he's going to get the permit. We're so close. I'm not going to have to go to those 6am hockey practices. And I'm not going to have to, you know, leave the house at 9.30pm to pick him up from a late one. Cause he's going to have his license. And now I look back and you miss those times, those convert that those windshield conversations. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. I remember coming home from dropping my kid off at in New York City, my middle daughter, Hannah, and that left me with an empty nest. But it didn't dawn on me. Until I walked in, I would drove back from New York, which is like 26 hours. I walked into my home and I opened up the door and I and I looked in the house and it just flushed me. You're alone now. And I lost it. I'll never forget that day.

I looked at my dog and I'm like, dude, thank God you're here. A lot of parents are not prepared for the empty nest. And if you're not looking, if you're not expecting it and you're not at least a little bit prepared, it'll knock you on your ass. For me, it's mindset. I grieve when you need to grieve, acknowledge it and be excited that your kids are growing and they want to leave the nest.

That's success. How did you set your kids up for success? I think that going back to treating them with respect, you know, like adults in some capacity at a young age, but protecting their childhood, you know, not exposing them to adult things, but treating them with the respect that you would any other human being and not talking down to them, setting high expectations. And like, I remember when both of my daughters, when they came home, I think they were both 15 or 16 at the time, straight A's again, you know.

and but i'd look in the comments it would say that my favorite part about your child is not their grades it's the fact that they're so kind to the other kids in the class oh man that's knock me out man knock me out um uh and they came back and say dad i got straight a's again you know so and so got a b we were in a pretty wealthy area so and so got a bmw for straight a's i'm like that's great you want to go get some you want to go get some ice cream you know and again the cartoon bubble above my head is i don't give a shit what anybody else got, you're my kids. You want to expect yourself to aspire and get great grades. Not that I'm not, I'll say congratulations. You'll get a big hug and we'll go out for a nice dinner. We're not going to not acknowledge it. You're not attaching the straight A's to a brand new car. That's irresponsible. And so things like that. Some parents pay for grades and I would say you do you. I want the kids to get good grades because they want to get good grades and it's important to them to get good grades. And if they don't get good grades, it's not always because they're not trying hard. Right. So there can be a heck of a lot of effort behind a C that may be an easy A for another kid. Well, the other thing that consistency keeps coming up, but when they would go, when we had 50, 50 custody and they would go to their mother's house, completely different set

of rules and absence of rules. Right. And my son, because he was there alone for a number of years after my daughter's left, he was so confused. I mean, she didn't even make him go to school.

You know, I would show up at a soccer practice the off week and the coach would come up and say, where was he last week? I'm like, I'm, I don't, did you get a phone call? I go, no, nothing. He's the best player on the team. We got, we can't do without him. You know, and he eventually stopped playing sports because of this nonsense. But when they came to my house and it was challenging for a while because they loved the routine and the discipline, but getting anything you wanted from mommy was also pretty fun when you're a kid, you know, anything, anything you want new clothes, you want, let's go out to eat. Let's go on a trip. You don't have to do anything.

Just I'll, I'll lavish you with stuff. Cause I can't lavish you with love. I don't know how, you know? So I think the irony of that is that they were the, the difference in those two environments were magnified and all three of them eventually learned daddy's doing what daddy's doing it feels right and what mommy's doing feels wrong I think that was a part of it as well but I think consistency just keeps coming up Jackie I think that's the biggest thing yeah yeah I do too I do too what I love about your work and about you as as a parent is that there's just so much encouragement for people that it's find out who you are and then just live it like just embrace that well it's it's you know it's personal accountability too if you can teach in personal accountability it's like you when you bump up against hardship in life or a challenge or a problem that you don't know how to solve yet you know don't don't blame that on this on the world or someone else or something else or circumstances say what could i have done to make this happen different and get a better result out of this? What can I do to avoid that next time? What can I do to get a better result from that next time? And so once you teach them personal accountability, because the world we live in now, everybody's just blaming everybody else, right?

Everything's somebody else's fault. Well, you're never going to grow up with that attitude and you're never going to be happy with that attitude. So I think personal accountability was something I really emphasized and tried to support no matter what age they were. No, that's awesome.

That's super great. All right. How can people get in touch with you if you're a parent, you're in business, and you're just you're not feeling fulfilled? You're feeling like there's got to be more to life out there than the way yours is going?

Yeah. And before I do that, just real quick, it's also most of the stuff that I do, and I found this out over the years, it applies to any challenging problem that you have in life. And because I'm a parent, because I'm a single parent, because I have daughters and a son, I got my experiential breadth and depth is pretty wide and pretty deep. And when I help people professionally, I always help them personally. It's because you can't, you can't have the proper depth of conversation professionally, unless you understand what's driving them personally, and what's challenging them personally. So I just wanted to clarify that what I can help with.

So I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. I'm easy to find. It's the LinkedIn URL forward slash Aylward Mark. My website is 7pillarsglobal.com, the number 7, pillars, plural, global.com. Anything you need from me, we can begin the journey from either of those places.

Mark, you are a true joy to talk to. I'm so glad that we were connected. No, I'm enjoying this. I'm meeting all kinds of interesting people like you. And I just, I love talking about this stuff.

No, it's fun. And again, congratulations on your book and everything you got going on. Thank you, Mark. Yeah, we have the link in the show notes to get the books.

We are pretty proud of our first two No Problem Parenting books. You can access all the links in the show notes. Find 7pillarsglobal.com, theimperfectmensclub.com, and connect with Mark on LinkedIn as well.

And as always, thanks for following, downloading, and leaving a review of the No Problem Parenting podcast. By doing so, you're helping us help more families. digital audio health by cymatrax