Myths that Keep Your Kids in College Debt; Graduate Debt Free with Special Guest Denise Thomas

Hey, welcome back, No Problem Parents. Are you doubting your parenting skills? Are you struggling to make decisions? Constantly have that nagging feeling that you're just not doing enough for your kids?

Maybe you feel like you're too harsh or too lenient. Do you doubt your decisions or compare yourself to other parents, thinking that they're better at this parenting thing than you? All right, you guys, get off the shooting bus and all things fear and join our No Problem Parenting program. For the month of November, we are celebrating our nine-year anniversary, and so we're offering $100 off of the Becoming a No Problem Parent program.

Get you and your family back on track in 30 days. Click on the link in the show notes and enter the coupon code 9, the number 9, years, and get your $100 off coupon today. All right, so I saved you $100 right there, and my guest today is going to save you even more. thousands of dollars. She's going to talk today about myths that keep our kids in college debt and how to get your college student to graduate debt-free. Yes, absolutely debt-free. She's done it with both of her kiddos. Whether you have a middle schooler or an adult child that's already a few years into college, today's episode is going to help you learn how you can actually get your kiddo to attend college debt-free. Denise Thomas is going to share the benefits of attending college without student loans and the challenges that parents have that are making this a difficult goal to attain, but also how parents can overcome these challenges and what you and your students can do today, even as early as middle school. So meet Denise Thomas. She's an international best-selling author, TEDx speaker, and parenting coach of college-bound teens. Denise inspires, educates, and equips parents to take an active role in supporting their children to live life of financial freedom. Her mission is to flip the student debt statistic in the United States.

Denise is a 20-year homeschool veteran having homeschooled both her kiddos from pre-k through high school. Using her proprietary repeatable strategy, both of her homeschooled kids attended their first choice college on 17 scholarships that exceeded $199,000 walking out of college with cash in hand. Denise says you can keep your money. Send your kids to college on other people's cash. College doesn't have to be a debt sentence. All right, I'm so excited for this. Let's get into it. Welcome to the show, Denise. Thanks, Jackie. I'm so happy to be here. You have an amazing story.

You have a TEDx on it. I don't know if you want to give it all away on the episode today. We're definitely going to put a link in the show notes for your TEDx talk, but tell us your journey with helping your kiddos through college and how are you able to save? I'm not even going to give it away. You, I want you to share how your kids went through college debt-free. Awesome. Well, I will tell you that it was actually a journey and it was not a fun journey. And I know that most parents out there are, when you think about college, it's very stressful, not just for you, the parent, but also for your teenagers. We don't think about college as something to plan for, unless we're thinking about maybe putting money aside once our, you know, as soon as our kids are born. And there are parents who do that, and I applaud them. That was not us. We were the typical American family. We didn't put aside a dime. Oh yeah, once every three to five years,

the thought might cross my mind. And then we did literally nothing about it. And my husband was working in corporate. He worked in corporate for 15 years. And then suddenly he was laid off. We had just built our dream home, the one we thought we would retire in.

And my kids were starting high school. Okay. So what do you do when your husband gets laid off? I mean, we really had no clue this was coming.

It was a shocker. We put the house on the market. We bought a smaller home. You know, I'm the finance person.

I'm the money gal in the household. I pay the bills. I make sure everything gets paid on time, et cetera. I watch the budget.

But then the stock market crashed. And that 401k we had built up for 15 years suddenly disappeared. But we continued to pay those bills. And oh, by the way, yes, we did put house number one on the market. But house number one didn't sell. We had two mortgages with no income coming in.

the problem was that we do pay our bills on time every time so we were paying the two mortgages paying the utility bills and everything else and literally within months I'm seeing the writing on the wall the money was running out fast so I told my husband we really we really have no choice we we just we can't do anything else we have to declare bankruptcy but this bankruptcy Jackie was liquidation this is where you have strangers coming into your home and making an offer on literally everything you can touch man there was nothing left even my kids were like why do our stuff have to go right and when I say everything Jackie I mean everything books toys pots and pans furniture Christmas decorations but this is just what we had to do now my husband had enough money when we were made this decision we had enough to hire the bankruptcy attorney because by the way they're not free and pay him and buy a lawnmower and trailer so that we could mow lawns and put food on the table so a few months after this total devastation took place we're now in a small apartment because the houses had to go into foreclosure and I'm suddenly realizing wait a minute my daughter's about to start high school college is around the corner how are we going to pay for this. We had no savings left, no 401k to borrow against, no house to borrow equity from, and oh yeah, that bankruptcy. The number on your credit, I'm sure, right? That's it. Now you have no credit.

You can't co-sign for those student loans everyone likes to talk about, you know, every two years when it becomes a political football. They forget to mention that to you. Your kids can only get a small amount in student loans by themselves. Everything else, they need a cosigner.

That cosigner is you, the parent or grandparent. So now what do we do? Because that took student loans off the table for us. Well, Jackie, I started doing the research and one of the first things that I found was that 70% of college students graduate with some amount of student loan debt. And that can be anywhere from $5,000 to anything with a bunch of zeros if they were going to med school or what have you. But that means 30% are graduating debt-free. How are they doing it? What do they know that the rest of us aren't being told about. That's what I set out to find.

But I had another hoop to jump through because it was more than just finding the money. I was homeschooling my kids. So I also had to figure out how to get homeschooled kids accepted to college and accepted with scholarships, mind you, because we could not pay for this. There were a lot of things that came up that these other kids are doing.

And sure, there's the few people whose parents have scrimped and saved, or maybe they own a company and they can afford to pay for college. And there are a few who maybe they're just the opposite, totally so destitute, low income, they do get maybe free college or something close. but another thing we believe is that student athletes get free college no they don't that's a miss maybe one on a d1 team might get a full ride so if you're thinking your kid's an athlete um you might want to think again that's not your free ride to college we also believe that geniuses get free college. I got a lot of people I know who have kids with perfect stats, valedictorians, and they're paying through the nose for college. There's a lot of myths that we believe and have been believing for literally decades that are keeping our kids in college debt.

So what did I do? Well, I looked at all of the things that these other kids were doing that was getting free college for them and graduating debt-free. And I said, okay, so what are they doing that I can put into place for my homeschooled kids? What is it? What are the different little pieces parts that seem to have or might have some type of an effect on the outcome on college admissions or getting scholarships? I put every single one of those pieces into play for my two homeschooled kids. I'm so excited to hear what all these things are. We have a senior. So of course, this is a hot topic in our home. And, um, and I do have a question about it too. Like a lot, we we've got some money tucked aside. We kind of know where we're at with some things, but it also is dependent on which college he, he decides he'd like to go to or wants to go to. Fortunately for us, our kid doesn't like to spend money. He has been saving. He's adamant about that.

so we're a little ahead of the game when it comes to that but I don't feel like we've been very prepared either and and there's this is this a myth or is there something you know a lot of people say oh man don't even start now you're it's too late once they hit senior year it's too late to even you know begin thinking about saving just just go the the student loan route well and I I hear that too, people, because the truth is the earlier you start, the more opportunities you have.

So if your listeners have kids, even in middle school, let's get on a call for at least 30 minutes and let me get you set on the right track. Now, I don't take clients at that age, but there are things you can do in middle school that will have an impact on your kids' college acceptance and scholarships. And you mentioned it earlier, scholarships actually begin as early as kindergarten. so you cannot start too early, but what about too late? Is being a senior too late? Is already being in college? A lot of kids are just starting their college career right now. Is it too late? And the answer to that is no, and here's why. Scholarships, not only do they begin in kindergarten, they go all the way through college, grad school, and professional school. Now, there are fewer available.

the more the further you get along in your career path but they're still there and for high school seniors that's the majority there are 1.8 million scholarship opportunities totaling 23 billion dollars given away every year the trick though the key is applying to the right ones knowing how to find them and then knowing how to win them. If we get back to my own kids, okay, so we had this quote strategy in place, but we weren't sure what was going to work until we actually started applying to colleges and scholarships. My daughter applied to her first national scholarship as a high school junior. This was a spring of her junior year.

this scholarship was for ten thousand dollars she won at that point that there was something in this what we did something right right you you get a win and you're like okay let's analyze this what went right about this and there's a couple of things first of all uh i want to say about then this was before covid i was on a stage in california and i had just come off the stage And a woman, a mom came up to me and said, your kids must be geniuses because my kid applied to 40 scholarships and won none.

And I felt so bad because at that point in time, I had mentioned from the stage the wins that my kids had and the outcome. And we'll get to that in a moment. But what I forgot to mention from that stage was that half of the scholarships that my kids won didn't even ask for GPA or test scores. You don't have to be a genius.

Again, it's another miss. So this mom did want this child did one of two things wrong. Either she applied to the wrong scholarships, which is common, or she didn't know how to win them. That's the strategy.

so when we were figuring this out right about the same time that my daughter applied to that national scholarship she also applied to her first university this was a college that didn't have a set open date for their applications it was strictly you can apply anytime just check the box at the top that tells us what semester you plan to start. Well, I figured nothing was going to change in six months. She had her ACT scores. She had her GPA. It's not like we were going to, you know, suddenly have some great change in outcome. Just go ahead and apply.

Three days after sending this in, she got a phone call from the university and the gentleman introduces himself and this is why I ask parents, you really need to put the parent phone number on the application versus the child's. Because this is a man asking for my 16 year old daughter, just saying. You're going to have to go through me first, right? Well, he introduces himself and he says, we received your daughter's application, but did not receive the application fee. Now I'm hitting myself on the head going, And oh my goodness, that's following directions.

And then he continues and says, and we'd like to offer her tuition, fees, room, board, and books. But we need the fee to process the scholarship. Wow. Now, before I'm jumping up and down for joy, I've got my daughter's on speakerphone here listening in.

And she's about to just, I can see she's about to cut loose. and I'm doing the timeout symbol with her going, something's wrong because I'm thinking he made a mistake. Right. They don't call you.

Right. They don't call you because, you know, you didn't send in the money. That's no, this, this application should have ended up in a pile waiting for a check that would never come because how would I know? How would I know they didn't get it?

So then I asked this question. You do know she's a junior. yes ma'am we'll wait for her what the heck there was something in this application something that had this college sit up and take notice well she applied to eight colleges across three states both public and private and we heard similar things at many of those schools As a matter of fact, by the time she finally made up her decision as to which one of those eight she would actually attend, she sent a withdrawal letter to the other seven schools.

One of the seven, a private school in another state, called her to ask, what can we do to get you to come here? Even though she had turned them down. Really? They had already offered a scholarship, but then they were ready to offer more.

again there was something in this i know you're like the suspense is killing me here denise well and no truth is i wasn't sure yet my son is five years younger can we repeat this process yes we can so he had similar results and by the way both of them were offered this nice free ride scholarship to two different schools and they both turned them down. Well, you don't do that. You don't turn down a full ride scholarship, but you do if you have multiple additional private scholarships that make up the difference for any other school you choose to attend. Between the two kids, they won and attended college on 17 scholarships, totaling $199,000. That is amazing. Four years debt-free with cash left over. I was just going to say, did it even cost that much? Like how can you make money off of this? Well, here's the deal again. And you hit the nail on the head earlier with, you've got to choose the right colleges because there's something called scholarship stacking. Not every college allows your student to stack scholarships. And even those that do, you really have to ask the right questions because sometimes the answer is not the same definition that you're thinking. For example, I had a client whose child was accepted to with a particular scholarship at a particular school. But upon very close analysis of this scholarship, yes, she could get other scholarships from other sources that was allowed. But what about what happens if she gets more than

tuition and fees? Well, this school was going to return any of that excess to the scholarship organization. What you want is the college that lets your teenager pocket the money. That's how you get paid to go to college. My daughter graduated with $4,000 leftover.

My son graduated with $10,000 leftover. But you've got to ask the right questions. do they stack scholarships and is there a limit to how much they can get what happens with the excess if they get more than tuition fees room board and books what you want to hear is that they're going to give you the money yeah right i have to imagine that uh your kids were probably a little bit more frugal with their money during college as well than some so that it is possible that they wouldn't have finished with excess money had they not been so, so money cautious and money smart, maybe?

Well, think about, yeah, I mean, there's opportunities for kids to blow money anywhere, whether they're teenagers still living at home, but especially when they're at college, because there are kids out there who will buy the most expensive name brand clothing and shoes, or look, God help you. If your kids are into the fraternities and sororities, that is money you can never get back because it's not just the fees for the sororities and the fraternities, which by the way, is a lot of money, but especially for the young ladies, you're expected to wear certain clothing for every different event with a different outfit. And there's just a lot more to it. And when they're the upperclassmen and they have a pledge that they're working with, they're expected to put forth funds for different things as well. So you just have to think about that. And then there are those who will seek out partying and things. I've seen that myself. My daughter was not one, but she had roommates that started the party at 5 p.m. and then extended the party when they went out at 9 p.m. to different bars and things. I mean, it's easy to blow the money. Exactly. I'm just thinking, you know, when I first started, I paid my way through college, but as much college as I attended, I should say.

But I remember some of my friends getting scholarships, student loans, different things, and they would furnish their apartments. Like, you know, I'm using garage sale furniture and they're furnishing their apartments with brand new stereos and things like that. So that's just all I was referring to. And that is definitely something to consider.

And it's something to discuss with your children. The discussion, the money matters conversation between parent and teenager needs to happen as early as possible. If you can catch your kids and have a sit down discussion with pen and paper, and show them the math when it comes to college, when it comes to finances, and have the discussion about, okay, so what happens after college? Let's say you go into XYZ profession.

Let's look up what is the entry-level salary, not the average, because they're going to give you a 10-year average. Look up the entry-level salary for that particular career choice or college major. What is the take-home pay? Let's take taxes out as well.

Let's think about it. You've got FICO to take out. Guess what else comes out? Health insurance.

That's another bump that they're not going to be expecting. And let's talk about living expenses. If you have to add to that $500 or more per month to pay college debt, the last thing you want to realize is that, oh my gosh, I spent that money on college furniture or I bought a car with that money. And now they've got to pay it back at probably a higher interest rate than maybe getting that car would have been.

So definitely have your kids have that conversation. Have them know what you will or can or cannot afford for college. even families that I know that could easily have paid for college for their kids their kids had to pay for it themselves by whatever means they could and they made a deal with their kids one family I know whatever GPA you get we're going to give you some amount of money at the end of college as your graduation gift based on that GPA if you got you know 4.0 we'll give you 100% of your college cost back. If you got a 3.0, maybe it's 80% or whatever, you make that decision. The other family incentivized their teens and young adults to apply for scholarships by saying, we will match in cash, whatever scholarships you win.

So just some things to consider. If you do have the cash, if you do have the money, There are other things you can do with that money. Now I tell families this. Okay. So let's say you scrimped and saved, or you have the money one way or the other to pay for college.

And you're thinking it's no problem. We don't have to worry about our kids, you know, college, we've got it covered. Awesome. More power to you.

But wouldn't you rather give your kid a house at graduation rather than pay for a piece of paper? I mean, there are other things you want to do with that money for myself and my husband. we dropped off my son for his college debt-free and we bought a 42-foot motor home and went full-time rving for five years it's not just your kid that gets to take advantage of this yeah exactly that's exactly right i have a few questions for you before we wrap up um one of them is i'm sure other listeners are curious to hear and maybe you're not willing to share but can you give us any inkling or idea of what was in your daughter's application that caused a school or several schools to offer her tuition free college? Sure. And you know, it's, it's really the whole package.

And when I asked my daughter, cause first, let me back up while we were doing this RVing thing, the entire time I got phone calls, text messages, and emails from friends or friends of friends asking, what did you do? How did you do it? My kids are just starting high school. What do we have to plan for, et cetera. And I found myself copying and pasting exactly the steps that we took in order. And so at one point we decided, well, you know, let's, let's put this puppy on the road, so to speak, and let's make a business of it and share it with other families.

So I asked my daughter, I said, what makes this different? What is it that we're doing? differently than what other families are doing. Because let's face it, she said it's the difference between Disney World and Six Flags.

They all have the same components. They've got rides, food, entertainment. But Disney does two things differently. Marketing and storytelling.

That's the difference in this application. We are marketing your child to the colleges, not the other way around. Let's flip the scenario. You need to be applying to the colleges that want you.

Some people call them, you know, buyer versus seller colleges. Well, in truth, both the college and the student are both buyers and sellers. It just depends on what point in time you play each role. And choosing the right college list is the very first place to look.

Why? Because the biggest bucket of money is coming from the college your child chooses to attend. And there are 4,000 colleges and universities out there here in the U.S. alone.

There's a lot of choices out there. There's bound to be one or more, probably plenty, that will pay your child to go there. So start there. Start with choosing the right college list.

Second, don't wait until you know how much money you need to find to start looking for college scholarships. College scholarships for high school seniors begin in May after junior year. so here we are you know mid-senior year or so you've already left six months worth of money on the table start now but there are scholarships for every grade level so wherever your child is there are scholarships that they can apply for but apply to the right ones right apply to the ones that they can speak to so it was in her marketing and of herself and her storytelling She wrote a great essay.

Well, the application tells the story of who your child is. See, colleges are looking for three things. And here's another myth that we're typically believing, that colleges are looking for the jack of all trades. That was three decades ago.

That's not what they're looking for today. They're looking for focus, clarity, passion, who your child is, what makes them tick. When you think about a college campus, most of them have hundreds of clubs and organizations to fill. They can't have all valedictorians or student body government presidents.

They only can have one of those in each graduating class. So they don't need to bring on 1,500 valedictorians. But they do have clubs to fill. They may have a martial arts club.

They may have a chess club. They may have a, you name it, whatever it is your kid is into club. But you have to showcase that in your application so that colleges know, without having to look too far, that the odds are your kid will be involved in that particular club or organization on their campus. even colleges that don't have a particular sport let's say your kid is into playing football or baseball whatever and they're not going to be recruited for that particular sport that's not how good they are that's not what they want to do whatever the case may be and maybe they even want to go to a college that doesn't offer any of that even you know on a spirit level but the college does have intramural sports. So if this is what your kid is into and it's shown throughout the entire application, they can feel pretty confident your child will participate in the intramural sports at that campus. So figure out what it is that your kid loves, what makes them tick,

who are they, and showcase that throughout their application in some way. It really is a game changer. I've had a little lens into our son is doing that right now. And all on, you know, his own, he's, he's working on it. He's well, he's working with a student tutor for some of that stuff, but we're not contributing to that. And it is so fun to see when your kid is actually like they want it when they want it and they have a goal, they're going to figure out how to get it.

And they're going to be really resourceful and they're, and they're going to do it on their own. So it's, it's awesome to see that. And yeah, with the little, he'll ask us for help or have questions here or there, but it is really, it's great to see that. I had another question about, you started the story off with you and your husband having to file bankruptcy. So I think many listeners out there might be thinking, well, of course they didn't have any money. So it's much easier. Their kids would qualify. Is that a myth too, that there's parents out there saying we make too much money? My kids don't get anything. It's both Jackie. We were bankrupt. However, by the time my kids were filling out applications, we were back up to six figures. So we were no longer in the, well, you know, you're poor, so you get the Pell Grant. Right. So let's start with that. The Pell Grant, you know, people are wondering, well, we make too much money to,

quote, get anything. I got news for you. Even if you, quote, got something, it's not going to cover much. The Pell Grant is intended to help your child pay for tuition at a local regional college where they are living at home. So if you're thinking for a minute that, oh, we don't get anything because we make too much. Everybody makes too much. And even if you got it, you wouldn't, you couldn't do much with it anyway, unless your kid was going to a local school.

So don't think that that's, you know, the way to go. It's not. And as far as making too much money, the it depends on the college that your child chooses to go to public schools don't have a lot of leeway as far as offering merit-based scholarships and the only need-based financial need based on your income is going to come from the federal government be it the pell grant or some other type of grant or a subsidized student loan or maybe work study when it comes to private schools though, private colleges, they have more money to dole out. Now, truth is, none of this is real cash for any of these discounts, even for scholarships. You're not seeing this money in your hand. It's a discount coming off of your cost of attendance on the fee bill. But when it comes to these private schools, they have endowments from alumni. A lot of people are giving back. They're encouraged to give back to their university and their college.

So you can be making $150,000 a year. And if your kid gets accepted to Harvard, let's say, you may only have to come up with $20,000 per year, and that'll cover their tuition fees and room and board. But it depends on the college. The key, though, is to know going into it that this is a business transaction, not an emotional one.

They're preying on your emotions. They market to your emotions. Same thing for, well, let's face it, weddings. That's an emotional expense.

Having a pet, pet owners, look, I'm dog people too, will pay any godly amount of money for our pets. Same thing is true for college, but we need to turn that around in our own minds, in our own families, with our own kids, that this is a financial purchase that we're making. This is a decision that needs to be made logically. Yes, you can apply to XYZ school that costs $80,000 per year.

But if our budget, if our family budget says we're coming up with 13K per year, and they're telling you we need to come up with 20, it's not in the ballgame. You just need to be able to start early as possible. Forget the darn term dream school. that was made up by colleges that cost way too much money, that are overpriced, trying to get your emotions involved. Do not put that in your vocabulary.

These are such good points. So before we wrap up, I do want to ask the last question I had here, which is, you know, oftentimes this is big in the news. I see people posting about it on Facebook, the challenge of, you know, graduating and 10 and even 20 years later, you're still paying off college loans. I can't imagine that myself, but we're often blaming the student loans.

And not that I'm a fan of blaming anybody, but realistically, who's to blame or whose fault is all of this when our kids are as adults now in all this debt? You know, I hate to say it, but you signed a contract. You're an adult when you sign that contract. You are responsible for paying it off. Now, there are so many ways to pay that debt.

So many ways. It boggles my mind when someone says, I have $200,000 worth of student loan debt and I can't pay it. Really? Have you thought about mowing lawns? Have you thought about pulling weeds for your neighbors? Have you thought about tutoring a subject? And I'll just give you a couple of quick things. My own children, while they were in high school, had their hobbies or their organizations of things that they did, and they earned their own money. They both did some let's work for somebody else type of money, but they also had their own businesses.

My son was in 4-H. He loves to cook. Now, if I tell someone in his presence that he loves to cook, he will correct me and say, no, mom, I love to eat, which is why he loves to cook. But he won a lot of contests, cooking contests with the things that he cooked through 4-H club all the way to state. So he chose to sell his award-winning cheesecakes for $50 each.

And we're talking 10 years ago. My daughter was a ballroom dancer. She taught ballroom dancing to couples for $75 an hour. She still teaches today.

She's a ballroom dance athlete and competitor. What can your teenager do to raise money for that college kitty? When I was young, I taught other kids how to play the guitar for 10 times the minimum wage at the time. Everything I'm mentioning to you is 10 times the minimum wage is what they're getting paid.

I know a student who was in college, got an A in organic chemistry, sold his notes, copies of his notebook for $65 each. Think outside the box. pay off the debt, get it off your shoulders. You'll be so grateful when you do.

Yeah, I absolutely love that. And it is so true. And you are the queen of like the guru of getting us helping our kids get through, through college debt free. And so tell everybody you've got courses, you've got your a wealth of information, step by step kinds of stuff, ideas, suggestions, how to how to parents reach out to you or get ahold of you or find all this information.

Awesome. Well, thank you, Jackie. They can reach me on my website, getaheadoftheclass.com.

I love that name. Getaheadoftheclass.com. And of course, the email is Denise at getaheadoftheclass if they'd like to reach out personally. I'm on Facebook. It's a little hard to find me on Facebook because Denise Thomas is a common name. But if they search for Denise Thomas Debt Free College, I think they'll find me that way.

but definitely included notes so I'll put yeah I'll put those in the show notes as well so there's there'll be some links there but you also offer you have a checklist yes I have a checklist called 12 scholarship secrets tips from strategic scholarship judges and this is a checklist to use before you submit any college or scholarship application it ensures that it's not going to get tossed into file 13 from the get-go. I love it. That's a free resource. So people can just go to your website, getaheadoftheclass.com and get that resource absolutely free. And then they can take a look around at your courses and your options, but you also offer a free phone call so that if a parent is unsure, if they should get started, if they're too late,

which you're of course saying they're not, they can already have college kids in college right No, I've seen some testimonials of yours where parents are saying their their kiddos were two years in and already accruing too much debt. And and you've helped them pick up some scholarships and and bring in some and some money to help support them through the last half of their four year degree. So I just think you're a wealth of information. I didn't know half of this stuff.

I thought we were pretty prepared knowing we weren't fully prepared for all this college stuff, but also knowing that it's our son's responsibility. And, and that's the way we parent him. But there's a lot more that we can be doing that he can be doing. And, and I'm just really excited to be able to share all of this information with him. So thank you so much. Any last words or thoughts that you want to share with everybody before we end today?

Well, obviously, starting early is the key to a lot of these things, because, you know, let's face it, when you're when you're trying to run things at the last minute, stress is going to take effect and it's going to make it more difficult for everyone. So the earlier you start, the more opportunities there are. But college doesn't have to be a debt sentence. You don't have to have that college debt.

That's just something we believe to be true. Let's change the narrative. All right. Thanks for listening today, parents. I hope Denise's tips are going to help you and your family save thousands of dollars. You want to become a no problem parent? Have you signed up for our newsletter yet? You can go to atnoproblemparents.com, sign up for the free newsletter, and you're going to get the make it right technique right away. There's also a coupon code in there. Get your $100 off for the month of November on the Becoming a No Problem Parent program. You're going to enter the coupon code nine years. And then I have a little special favor for you guys. We are coming up on 100 episodes of the No Problem Parenting podcast,

and we are getting close to 10,000 downloads. Would you do me a favor? If you haven't already subscribed to the podcast, you're going to get notification right away when a new episode comes out. And if you'd leave a quick review of the show, if you're listening in iTunes, hit that five-star review for me, and then leave a quick little review and say, Hey, love the podcast or keep the guests coming. And then if you're feeling super generous this month, it is the month of being grateful, right? And all things Thanksgiving, take a screenshot of the podcast channel art and share it on your Instagram or other social media. Thanks so much for listening today, guys. We have lots more coming up for you. We have made it in the top 5% of podcasts and our goal is to hit the top 3% by the year's end. And so all your likes,

follows and reviews help us out a ton. It's the little things that make the biggest difference guys. All right. Thanks so much for all your support. You guys hugs and high fives, Jackie.