Navigating High-Conflict Co-Parenting: Ensuring Stability for Children with Diane Dierks and Rick Voyles

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Become a No Problem Parent today. All right, welcome back No Problem Parents. Today's guests, Diane Dirks and Rick Boyles, are the co-hosts of the Co-Parent Dilemmas podcast. They're experts in navigating the complexities of co-parenting, especially in high conflict situations. In each episode of the Co-Parent Dilemmas podcast, they address pressing questions such as, what do you do when the other parent won't be flexible with your parenting schedule?

How do you respond to a co-parent who's constantly blowing up your phone with texts? Is it really important to talk to your children when they're at the other parent's house? And what about the parent who won't share important information with you about your kids? Do you give in to the other parent's antics or should you hold your ground?

Well, there's at least two sides to every conflict. And when it's between divorced or separated parents, sparks can fly. So Diane and Rick offer valuable insights into the benefits and risks of letting go versus holding on to the conflict in a variety of complex topics facing co-parents today. Diane Dirks is a licensed marriage and family therapist, as well as the executive director of the Center for Navigating Family Change, a nonprofit that provides court-ordered parenting education and co-parenting services to the state of Georgia.

She's also been a parenting coordinator and reunification therapist and provides consultation and expert witness services in high conflict custody matters. Rick Voiles is CEO of the Center for Dispute Solutions, as well as a certified business coach, an anger management specialist, and a professional mediator. Rick travels internationally training and developing federal mediators in their agency ADR programs. He is a published author, business coach, and entrepreneur.

He's also produced a TV program called Conflict Mediation and You, where he discusses topics in conflict management as well as mediation techniques. Rick is a subject matter expert in the areas of divorce, co-parenting, negotiation, cross-cultural communication, and conflict resolution. He frequently teaches court-ordered co-parenting seminars and is a trained parenting coordinator. Diane and Rick are a powerhouse team, and I am excited to share this resource with all of my No Problem Parenting listeners that are navigating high conflict situations.

You can check out the link for their podcast in the show notes. But for now, welcome to the show, Diane and Rick. I'm excited to have you here today. Thank you.

Thanks. Thank you. Yes. Hello, everybody.

I've been listening to your podcast, Co-Parent Dilemmas. You're a wealth of information, real talk, real life. This is what my kids said after coming home from dad's. This is what my daughter said after coming home from mom's.

It's the real deal. It's the real questions. And you guys have great tips for navigating all things co-parenting, especially when it doesn't go well. I think co-parenting can be challenging under the best of circumstances, but when it's high conflict, the stakes are even higher.

And so my first question, either one of you can choose to answer this, jump right in. What are some of the key challenges that co-parents face? co-parents who are cooperative don't really have some of these issues that we talk about on the podcast. And so we really cater to the high conflict co-parents. And by high conflict, we mean that they have to carry around their parenting plan in their back pocket or in their car in order to keep track of what they're allowed to do next. And if you're one of those parents where you really have to do something like that, we probably would call you high conflict, or you can't tolerate any kind of flexibility in your schedule with the kids because every time one of you tries to say, hey, can we do something different this weekend? I have a work thing or have to go out of town. It ends up creating a fight. Then we probably will call you high conflict.

If every misstep that the other parent makes is something that you write down for the next court case, we'll probably call you high conflict. So some of the challenges that we see in those families is that every little thing is heightened. Every step that I make is seen through the lens of what will my co-parent say or think about this? What will he or she tell his attorney about this?

How will a judge interpret this behavior? We all have parenting insecurities, right? I don't care who you are. I don't care how old you are.

You go back and you, even me, I've got grandchildren now, but I still find myself going back to that one time and thinking about how I should have done that differently and how did that impact my child? And so when you take those insecurities that are there naturally, and you add this other layer of I'm under a microscope from the other parent who divorced me or I divorced them or whatever the conflict was all about, it really can do a number on your parenting self-esteem, if that makes sense. Absolutely. So we try to help normalize that a little bit, that it's okay that you, number one, feel insecure about parenting occasionally, but it is understandable how it would exacerbate things when you have an ex who is bent on trying to make sure that you don't feel like a good parent. So they have a case that they can make.

Yeah. So how do parents cope when they're feeling like they're under a microscope? I can just you even say in the word microscope, I can think of several families right now, where that is definitely the case. And it's like you're walking on eggshells in your own home.

Yeah. One of the things that we promote is some really strict boundary setting. And Rick, why don't you talk a little bit about the email protocol that we promote that we that we think really helps co-parents put their conflict and things in perspective so that they can move on with their life and not spend every waking minute thinking about the conflict. Yeah, just like with children, structure lowers anxiety and stress. So one of the complications with high conflict co-parenting is communication. There's often an assumption that I have open access to you because we have children together. And they kind of take the couple contracts that, well, we're a couple, we have open access 24-7 to each other. But because now we have children, we still have open access. And that's not true. So we manage that by creating what we call a structured email protocol, where we structure the frequency of communication and we structure the email itself.

what's the content that we're going to talk about. And it allows the parent to focus upon the schedule. So I'm not constantly thinking, my phone goes ding, my anxiety goes skyrocketing because, oh my gosh, 15 more texts for my ex. But this allows you then to focus on the children.

What's the upcoming schedule this week for the children? How has anything changed? What's going on? What do I need to know coming up? And that stops a lot of that blaming and dehumanizing.

And it also curtails justifying myself or defending my parenting decisions, things like that. So we have found that incredibly useful to put a boundary around the communications. Oh, that's great. And so is it like a template that you share with parents?

Yes. here are the key things to cover maybe on a weekly basis or how does that look yeah we tell them to do it once a week let's say they do it on a Sunday night there's a structure to the email the other parent has 24 hours to return and then the other the initiating parent has 24 hours to wrap up any questions that parent had and then you literally don't think about communicating until the next Sunday night and a lot of parents say oh well my ex would never do that and we say they don't have to. You do it. You put your co-parent on notice. This is how I'm going to communicate with you.

Unless of course you have one of those very weird co-parenting agreements that the court initiated that somehow says you have to answer every email the person sends you, which is crazy. But most parenting plans don't have those clauses in them. And so we say, do it on your own. It's a way for you to finally say, we are not connected 24 seven anymore as a couple.

we have children together and that's important and we need to communicate regularly to the point where even if you have nothing to say on Sunday night we still encourage people to go ahead and send the email as a matter of habit okay none what do I need to say to you today nothing there are no issues we need to talk about on my end do you have any on your end if they say no Rick and I put our thumbs up and go great because that's where we want you to get we want you to get to a place where you're each parenting how you need to parent in your own home. And there are very rare occasions where you really have to discuss a major issue. What we find that parents do right out of the gate after divorce is they've got so much negative energy built up that they begin to just communicate about everything. And not everything is important. Some things or should just be dealt with on your own in your own home without the input of the other parent.

Well, that makes me think of another question about what happens when you have an uncooperative or hostile ex and how can we respond to that? So if you've got that ex that despite your attempts to do just the weekly email, they're consistently texting you, they're making it so that they're running into you, you know, at the grocery store or in school pickup or, you know, all those kinds of things that are just sneaking in on you. There are restraining orders for some of that, but as far as the over the top communication, once, you know, we really encourage people to do you and do a good you. And the non-impossible definition is I'm living my own values, the values that I want to teach my children. And I don't allow the other parent to dictate what those values are going to be because I've heard so many people that have come to me in individual therapy to talk about their divorce to say, you know, generally my family likes me, my friends like me, my coworkers like me, everybody I go to church with likes me, but there's this one person in my life who hates me. And I turn into an absolute B when, when I encounter this person And I don't like myself and who I am allowing myself to be with this other person.

And so my coaching and teaching to them has always been, you have to be who you're proud of and what values you want to live by. And you have to be able to do that in a structured way. And as long as you're doing that, you can with confidence, ignore those other messages. And I always say, don't ignore completely because sometimes in the ignoring, it fuels even more anger on the other side.

So we encourage people to have mantras, the things that they maybe put in their phone notes that they copy and paste from. And one of those would be, thank you for your email. I'll address it on Sunday night. Thank you for your opinion.

I'll take that into consideration so that you're responding, but you're not getting sucked in. That's genius. And a super helpful and hard. I think, how do you guys help support the parent then who, I mean, I love the mantra idea, but that they just can't let it go.

You know, they just can't sit back and say, thank you for the email. I'll respond to it on Sunday or address that on Sunday's email. And, you know, even though they want to so bad, not engage, they just can't let it go. So one of the things we work on with those high conflict co-parents is the realization that it's the conflict that hurts the children.

Most people think, well, divorce hurts the children, and none of the research supports that. It's the conflict between the parents or co-parents that hurt the children. So every time you get triggered and you respond or react, not even respond, react, that means that you haven't divorced that other person in your head. You have a legal divorce, but you haven't divorced them emotionally.

And they're still, so we're talking about, we've got to evict that person who is taking up space in your head so that you can fill that space with your children. And that takes practice, that takes time. And with the mantras and with the structured communication protocol and with a different mindset that I need to figure out a way to not generate or respond to conflict for the sake of my children, so that I can be the best me I could possibly be and be the best parent my children deserve.

Yeah, I love that. And it's really setting that boundary for yourself then, right? Yes. yeah and if you're struggling to the point where even with a coach or with good advice you are unable to do it it can be a therapy issue for whatever reason and we see this with people that have been in abusive marriages you know that that abuse that trauma that they've experienced is something that they really can't overcome with just hey you know keep doing it and fake it till you make it. It sometimes needs to be addressed and really explored through individual therapy.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And I think that's a really key point that reaching out to a therapist for yourself as the parent is super key if you are finding yourself being triggered. And, you know, despite not being in the same household with your ex anymore, you're still being triggered. But also So let's take a minute to talk about making sure that your teens and young adults are getting the support that they need as well.

So real quick, parents, do you have a teen or young adult who is tired of feeling like they don't quite fit in to society's traditional molds? Maybe they're struggling with the divorce. Maybe they're a bit of a misfit. And you might be asking yourself, where is that smiling kid that I once knew?

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Her Get Real program isn't just your run-of-the-mill therapy practice. It's a whole vibe. Think peer coaching, mentorship, and community outreach all rolled into one. So whether your teen or young adult is struggling with anxiety, depression, self-harm behaviors, or they're just feeling a bit lost in this crazy world, Dr. Kelly is going to teach your child the tools to identify and express their emotions, act in ways they can be proud of, and confidently believe in their worth.

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Visit drjjkelly.com or give her a call at 510-595-7594. there are links in the show notes to learn more. And so then I'm going to add another component in here. What about the role of extended family? So maybe you've got things figured out with your co-parent, but now maybe the in-laws, I mean, because again, that's a divorce, right? And in high conflict co-parenting, how do we navigate those in-laws who are maybe not supportive and making life even extra miserable, even though you and the co-parent might be on, you know, have, have figured it out. Yeah. In-laws are precious.

I was just going to say that makes me think of, Oh, bless their heart. That's never, never a good thing. If you hear that we're in the South. So yeah, we say that quite often, bless their heart. You know, in my, my mind, when you divorce, I'm in charge of my parents, and the other parent is in charge of their parents, right? And oftentimes, what we see is, because I had a good relationship with my ex's mother or other family, I somehow think that ought to continue. And I may even try to use that to my advantage. And, you know, blood is going to be thicker than water. So in some ways, as sad as it is, and there's a grieving process around that, that I have to let go of the relationship that I had with my ex-in-laws and really treat them as part of the business transactions that I have with my co-parent. And it would be nice,

and in some cooperative situations, it can maintain. You can maintain relationships with the other side but i've not seen it i don't know about you rick but i've not seen it in these high conflict situations where we can maintain a relationship with the other side while we're fighting no that family's family member it's no impossible really to do that so it's a matter of setting the right boundaries with that other family and understanding and you we have situations where it's the mother-in-law writing the communication about the co-parenting, not the co-parent or, you know, or the step-parent or whoever, their best friend, somebody else. And I always say, I don't care who's writing it as long as the kids get what they need. Yeah. So you can get all wrapped up about that and say, well, you know, I don't want to talk to his mother anymore. I know she's writing his emails. Well, okay. But if she's a better email writer than he is, maybe that's a benefit to you. So it would lower the conflict. If it does that, then we're good. Take what you can get but you know i think it's hard in even in intact families in-laws can be a problem right so i like that you give the words to people you kind of help them get started um in how to communicate and how to just really simplify the communication and pull out a lot of emotion that's what it sounds like that's the skill set really is figuring out how to

communicate without emotion. And Jackie, that's really hard for a lot of people who have long-term, have had long-term relationships. So think about a 10 or 20-year marriage where you worked and worked and worked for so many years to try to make that work. Most people don't have a great marriage and then it blows up in a week. You know, our marriages falter over time. It gets better, it gets worse. We go to counseling, we read books, we talk to our friends, we talk to our pastor.

we do a lot of things to try to save our marriages, especially when we have children. And then eventually somebody decides it just can't work. And then you go through a divorce, which is very emotional. And I think one of the hardest things for people to do is get that final divorce decree and then just shut all that down.

And too many people, the battery, I always say the battery is still charged and they're still trying. They're still trying to get approval from the other parent. They're still trying to be accepted. They're still trying to do all the things they were trying so hard to do in marriage, and it's not easily just shut off that emotion. So we tell people that they kind of have to put the battery in the closet and kind of let it die down, which is why when we talk to people in our practices, the first 90 days after the court hearing, don't make any changes.

don't do anything. Don't make any major decisions. Just follow the plan because you need a break from each other. You need time for that battery to kind of lose its energy. And then maybe once you kind of get through, the dust settles, you get through the final phases and the emotion of the divorce, then maybe you can start thinking about flexibility or a different type of co-parenting relationship. But it's amazing to me how people will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a court case that lasts two years and they get this fancy parenting plan and right out of the gate, they want to change it. Why? Give yourself a break and just stop. And so I think the email protocol is really helpful to that end as well. And a lot of judges actually put that in the order that they'll follow this protocol so that people can just go on with their lives and not keep that.

I still need my co-parent to think a certain way about me. You got to let it go. You got to let that die down because every time you have a fight, the battery gets re-energized in a negative way. Do you find that some parents maybe do that because they're looking for, I don't know if it's validation or if it's about, you know, see, I did everything I could.

I really tried and they're looking for some sort of, it's not my fault. One of the things, go ahead. It's usually why they enter marital therapy at the 11th hour, right? Which typically isn't the best time to go to marital therapy so that they can check off the box that I tried.

But, you know, once you get to the divorce court, especially once the judge has signed off on your agreement or on the order, there's no more trying. It really is something that you have to grapple with and accept and grieve and move on and stop with the old kind of way of doing things with this person. And like I said, that's hard and sometimes requires some therapy. Rick?

education, thinking that we need to be doing this for our kids. And they'll run into the breach, trying to, thinking they're doing a good thing. But then the other parent will say something negative, or they'll attack, or they won't do the right thing. And then that triggers the person who's trying. And then that person who's trying will either give up their boundaries and turn into a doormat or they will engage and press back, which creates that conflict.

If we can address that first assumption that our children are best served by us cooperating, then we can more easily let go of that past attempts of trying to work things out together. The children don't need both parents cooperating. Parallel parenting style, which we teach and structure and support and nurture, is just as effective for raising healthy, stable children as a cooperative co-parent style. yeah I agree and I and I've seen this uh in action that even some parents who think they can do a good job of co-parenting they continuously get in you know it might go well for a few weeks and then they're back at it and I suggest parallel parenting first because if you can figure that out then eventually you can figure out the co-parenting yes yeah people get that backwards we'll we'll try to cooperate and muck it up and then we'll turn the parallel parallel parenting if needed Yeah, I just kind of look at it as you're grieving divorces, there's a lot of grief. And so to separate as much as possible emotionally from the other person and I think parallel parenting from what I've experienced with that does a great job of that.

And it's really good for the kids too, because then they can see, oh, things are different now. Right. You know, my parents aren't connected like they were a lot of parents, even cooperative parents try to, you know, we still need to show up for the kids together. We still need to sit together at the baseball game or go to dinner every Friday night, just show them we're a team.

And that can actually, you know, backfire on you when new boyfriend and new girlfriend enter the picture. Yeah. And then suddenly they become the interlopers and things were good till you came around, which really isn't how you want to set up a new step-parent relationship. Right. So we tell parents, you set that boundary right away. Then the kids realize, okay, mom and dad are in a different relationship now than they were before. And it's okay. We can survive that. Right. That's clearer boundaries for the kids too, which makes them more, I think, comfortable and confident.

so I've had a few clients where let's say it's mom and she is maybe venting a lot to friends family members other people and they're kind of getting tired of it even though they're being kind and they want to be helpful they don't know what to do and they're kind of tired of hearing about it and so then they're offering thing you know advice and saying things like well you just need to tell them this or you just need to do that what's that never works right no no it doesn't and and you know it can be a very lonely place for a parent who has a high conflict co-parent situation especially if they don't have friends or family who have been through it or they have their you know my cousin and their ex get along perfectly you know why can't we be like them there's a lot of pressure like rick was saying earlier that somehow you're going to be better in divorce than you were in the marriage that fell apart, you know, and that's just so unrealistic. And so, yeah, we often hear that all of my family are telling they're getting mad because they're protective. They're protective of me or they're protective of my children.

And they're getting upset and saying, well, you just need to tell him blah, blah, blah. And they have no idea what would happen if I told him or her what they are telling me to do, because it would just increase the conflict. They don't realize that some of these high conflict co-parents are personality disordered, that they aren't operating out of a rational brain, that you can't confront them with rational reasoning that usually is used and twisted and turned against you.

And when you try to tell your family and friends that, it really is kind of crazy making when they say, I don't understand that. I don't know why you can't just do such and so. So we try to encourage people once they get that feedback to not keep going back for more. It's probably not going to be very helpful. Two, there are plenty of resources, and Jackie, you can point people to resources where they can get with other people, support groups that are going through similar things.

However, even then you have to be very careful that you're not just getting together inventing the negative and leaving that situation feeling worse than you entered it. Right. So that's a really good point. That's a really good point.

And so I'd like to segue then into you have come up with some ways to support parents going through this and in a number of ways. Number one, the co-parenting dilemma podcast, you have, it's like a QA format almost, right? Listeners can call in with their questions or email their questions, and then you just get on live and answer. Right.

variety of scenarios, maybe or responses. It is listener driven and not, we don't have guests, typically experts. We do occasionally if there's something that we really feel like we need an extra kind of expert help with, but for the most part, we just answer common questions and we choose the ones that we think are most common to most of our listeners. So yeah, we invite people to listen to the podcast on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcast. We also have a book that we wrote called I Am Non-Impossible because we label our parents who are trying to not be impossible as our non-impossibles. And the book is called, again, I Am Non-Impossible.

And it's a 12-week journey to co-parenting peace. And it guides people to listen to certain episodes on the podcast and then work through how they would apply those pieces of advice to their own lives. It also outlines the dragon method, which Rick and I have put together as a way for people to work through their high conflict situations and do what they need to do for their kids without the permission of their co-parent. And then finally, starting in March, we are going to start something called Hump Day Help. And it's going to be on Wednesdays at noon. And each Wednesday of the month will focus on different topics. So for instance, the first Wednesday of every month will be about parental alienation. Second Wednesday of every month will be about the trauma of being falsely accused. The third Wednesday about surviving the narcissist and the fourth Wednesday is about post-separation control and abuse. Because those are topics that we find are talked about a lot on social media and what people talk about most when they're in distress maybe not have all the answers for, but need to feel like I'm not crazy for experiencing some of these out of the ordinary high complex situations. And so parents can join each week as the, you don't have to go to every Wednesday. It's just the topic that resonates with you. All that we ask is they become a Patreon member. And so Patreon members on our site can do that for $10 a month.

So I guarantee you it'll be the best advice kind of support that you will get for that price. So we encourage people to become Patreon members of our show. It's important for high conflict co-parents to understand that they have to engage themselves in some sense of acceptance around the fact that I'm in this situation. You cannot compare yourself to other parents who don't have high conflict co-parents. And you have to focus less on behavior modification as part of your parenting and more on relationship building.

because kids experience complications that other kids don't experience. They're often in survival mode in these situations. And so if you focus too much on discipline or too much on how can I change my child's behavior or how can I teach him or her all these wonderful skills, you have to say, how do I do relationship building? How do I, despite of all these other things going on, how do I connect with my child? And so we spend a lot of time, even on the podcast, talking about stop worrying about the other parent and start just building a relationship with your child, because that'll be worth its weight in gold for many, many years to come, even into their adult life, that you can't replace that. And so if people, if co-parents can focus mainly on that in whatever situation they're in, they really can't go wrong. That will be memorable for their child. And the bonus is you're teaching them how to be in good relationship. Yeah. Amen.

Yeah. Yeah. Leading by example, for sure. This is so great. I'm glad we've connected and parents can reach out by going to cpdilemmas.com. Everything is at the website, the podcast, the book, how to become a VIP, a non-impossible VIP member for just $10 a month so that you can join in on some of these Wednesday events that you're having.

And we have resources for providing co-parent coaching. Most of it is around the communication. How do I respond? What are the mantras? Do I, what do I ignore and what do I need to address?

And so co-parent coaching can be a huge asset to navigate the impossible co-parent. And it's done individually. A lot of times people will go to a co-parent communications counselor or a parenting coordinator that requires both parents to attend and often requires a court order to do so. And what we have found is the vast majority of people don't get ordered to do that or they can't afford to do that.

And this is a way to learn how to do it on your own so that you can have your own personal piece. It doesn't require anything of the other parent for you to engage in the things that the coach is going to teach you how to do. Just, I appreciate all that you're doing to help these high conflict co-parenting situations and you make it so matter of fact, and it's tough. It's really hard for the parent that's struggling with it and dealing with it right now.

And I love that you're normalizing this in a way that makes parents like we don't have to get overly emotional. It's going to be okay. And people are doing it all the time. And your kids are going to turn out just fine.

And maybe even better in the long run. Right? Yes. And so we can just really lean into it and not fear it.

And there is a place for you at co-parent dilemmas.com, cpdilemmas.com and the co-parenting dilemma podcast. So thanks so much for joining me today.

Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Appreciate it.

All right. That's it for today's episode of the No Problem Parenting Podcast. Hey, thanks guys for tuning in. If you found value in today's episode, click the subscribe button and share it with other parents who might need a little boost.

Stay connected on our socials by following at No Problem Parents for more parenting tips and get your free download of the 60 ways to respond to your kids without losing your cool. go to no problem. Parents.com until next time. Remember your confidence comes from embracing both successes and setbacks. So take a deep breath, embrace the chaos, and remember you got this.